Katrina: Welcome.

Jennifer: So glad to have you guys here. I think probably the best place to start is for you guys to tell our listeners, our watchers, a little bit about yourselves, about your background and also what your mandate here is at Rangle. Katrina, why don't we start with you.

Katrina: Sure. My role here at Rangle, as you mentioned, is I'm a Senior Experience Designer. Just a little bit about my mandate, so I've been working on building out a little bit of a practice around user research and just kind of figuring out what that means and how we practice that on the projects that we have here.

Jennifer: Nice. Amazing. So how about you?

Russell: Yeah, so I'm a developer here at Rangle, so most of my time is spent with my team building software, but I'm also on the UI Architecture Team here, which means I'm kind of responsible for disseminating the leading practices for front-end development, in particular making sure that the things we build are delightful, accessible, maintainable, and performing. So, my kind of role, in particular, has been focused on accessibility and how do we actually incorporate accessibility throughout our projects?

Jennifer: I would like a job that has 'delightful' in the description, that part of your job is to make things delightful. That's pretty awesome, that's pretty amazing. So, Katrina, I, like everyone else, hear a lot of phrases that get thrown out there. So, there's UX, UI, design thinking, customer journey mapping. They get interchanged and intermingled all the time, so we're going to set the record straight today. So I'm wondering if you could give us what your take is on UX Research or what we should be calling that, what it actually means, and the role it plays in your work with the clients.

Katrina: Sure, great. We have things like customer experience, service design, all these other terms, but really, I think, what's core to all those things is the user. The user is really the person that is going to kind of determine the success of your product, so the users should play kind of a central role to all disciplines, and that includes user experience design as well as UI or visual design. We at Rangle like to call it User Research just to make it clear that it's not just about one discipline. It's not just one discipline that should be practicing that, it's really something central to all disciplines here.

Jennifer: So on a typical day what does that look like. So, you're working with a client and you're sort of mapping out the role that you're going to play as part of the project, what does that look like in practice?

Katrina: Yeah, so what it looks like in practice, it can vary essentially from project to project, but really our job is to kind of be the advocate for the user, and that can mean different things depending on kind of the phase of the project that we're on. So, if we're doing discovery, for example, that might look like going out there and doing user interviews. So, working with our clients to connect us with their, essentially, end user so we can talk to them and understand their needs. Maybe when we're later in the development cycle it might look like doing feasibility testing. Let's say we have a product that's in development, we're going to want to get feedback on that product from the end user. Yeah, so there's different activities depending on the phase, but it really all comes back to kind of being that advocate for the user at every step of the way.

Jennifer: And, we thank you for it. Russell, I think that ... If I think about the term accessibility there are some commonplace, sort of nomenclature around things must be accessible. What does that mean, and could you talk to me what that means with regards to development, and what the final assets or the software looks like when it has accessibility as it's primary focus?

Russell: Sure. Accessibility is really about making sure that the things that we're building are usable by a wide audience. So, kind of the core thing, again, is about the user, which is like who are the users that are often excluded from the things that we're building? Most commonly we look at people who have different abilities in terms of vision, cognitive abilities, mobility issues, and hearing. In terms of like how do we actually make these things work for people in practice? We're lucky that there's kind of the governing body of the internet, the W3C has the web content accessibility guidelines, WCAG. This lays out in great detail like, "Here are kind of the core things that you have to do to make sure that the things that you're building work for a wide range of people." These guidelines can be quite in depth and quite technical, if you haven't read them before.

Jennifer: I think that just to give the people watching, or listening to, the podcast, a real-world example is we're talking about ways that you build the meta data so to speak so that you could have voice over text, right? I think those are some of the things you're talking about, so making sure that the code that you're writing is compliant so that people can use those third-party tools or tools that they're using to have the text read out loud to them, or having full transcripts for people that cannot hear, et cetera. It's really, it is interesting work and, I agree, it's so important. You mentioned something about a governing body that is sort of looking at these things. Is there some legal considerations when you're thinking about accessibility?

Russell: Yeah, it's a really interesting thing because, obviously, it's going to vary by jurisdiction. In Ontario we have pretty kind of we're leading the way, in a sense, in terms of regulation. In Ontario by 2021 everything will have to meet what's called WCAG AA standards but that WCAG document is actually more and more globally getting accepted as the kind of defacto standard around how to build things for a wide range of people.

Jennifer: Because it's not just what you're putting out there going forward, it's grandfather to all of your content that's on your site, or your property, right? So that's where it could get really expensive right? So, it's almost a form of technical debt so to speak, right?

Russell: It is, yeah. What we found is like you can spend up to ten times more if you're trying to fix something retroactively than thinking about it up front.

Jennifer: Which sounds ... Again, follows that lean agile approach, right, that whole idea of do the things as you're doing them. So, it's really interesting. Good segue. How does accessibility and user design, how does that drive innovation?

Katrina: Right, so I think that's a really great question. There's a great kind of intersection of user research and accessibility. I would argue that when you're doing user research you should always be including those users have accessibility needs. Often those users are kind of excluded from the typical research process. One of the ways that that can actually drive innovation is that those are often the users who have kind of the greatest range of unmet needs. So, for example, technologies that are sort of around voice-augmented navigation. So, those are technologies that originally helped those who were blind to navigate kind of physical spaces. Of course, those are technologies that most of us have on our phones now today, and that's something that, while it was sort of thought about as something to help meet an accessibility need, it's really something that enhances the experience for everyone, and it's something that may not have necessarily been uncovered if we had just been doing user research with sort of that like smaller segment of the population ...

Jennifer: Good point.

Katrina: ... that only tends to be represented in most cases.

Jennifer: Right. You can argue that there use case is actually so much stronger when they do not include them, right?

Katrina: Yeah, exactly.

Jennifer: It's always like when we talk about testing on devices it's always like, "What are the far-reaching end scenarios?" Why wouldn't we think about that in terms of all of the ways that we're developing, right?

Katrina: Exactly. It's not just about testing on a range of devices but testing with those people who use those devices to actually understand. How do they use a screen reader? Or, how do they use other maybe physical-assistive technologies to interact with technology? So, really having that end user in the conversation really sort of enriches our understanding of those experiences.

Jennifer: Right. So, I think all of this means that it would ... Or so you [inaudible 00:10:56] that we're just relying on user feedback, or experience to drive all of the decisions that we're making. But what about, as you suggested, those wonderful decisions, or products, that we didn't know that we wanted. How do we navigate creating brand-new digital experiences? So, if we're just using, you know talking to the users that are using the product and making sure that they're able to accessible, whatever, how do we know, or how do we discover those things that are not known yet?

Katrina: Right, so I think that's a really great question. It's one that comes up a lot in user researchers, sort of how do we uncover these areas that we're not really thinking about? Often that comes through how we do the research, and it comes to our process. A lot of times we think about user research as kind of just going out there and literally just asking the user what they want, or what they need. But, there is a little bit more, I would say, even psychology behind it. So, really the intent is to sort of work with the user, either through interviews, through sort of studying how they use technology in their own environment, and kind of uncover or try to understand, wherever there's areas of kind of gaps in the market or unmet needs.

Jennifer: It's like the whole idea ... There's a book I read a long time ago, Paco Rabanne or whatever, it's why we buy. It's that whole idea that if you're not spending time back then, I'm dating myself but, in stores with customers, so watching and looking and seeing how they devour things, how would you ever understanding of that. Here's what I would find interesting. So you are working with clients. Is accessibility something that you're having to sell in as a, "You must," or is it something that there is already top of mind? Where are we on that adoption curve?

Russell: The momentum is definitely building. I think the reason for that is that companies are realizing, first of all from a legal point of view it hurts their bottom line. But, more and more it's they're realizing that you can solve real problems for a wide range of people. This is not a small group of people, it's a very broad group of people. So, when you think about your market more broadly you can start to plan your processes around building for that wider market, and we're seeing more companies start to look at like being on the leading edge of this. Microsoft is doing it. Google is doing it. And there's a reason for it. It's not just because they want to be good people, although I'm sure it's partly that, but they're seeing deeper problems that they can solve.

Jennifer: It's amazing. So, as someone who has been in marketing a long time, I like to think that I am deeply committed and deeply customer centric, and I'm always thinking about the user, what is it that when you're working with clients you find that you're having to ... I don't know if I want to say course correct, but when they say user experience, or when you're really experiencing that in real person, what is the value that you're bringing to them that says, "No, you actually need to invest deeply because of?"

Katrina: Right. So, there's probably a few different reasons for that, but I think a lot of times what we see with organizations is that they make a lot of assumptions that they already know the user really well, and they already know what their needs are. Of course, typically organizations come to us with a lot of information about their users, but having that kind of second set of eyes to help them validate what they've already learned about their customers really helps bring perspective. Let's say, for example, we're working with a startup who has an idea in mind, and they're really set on the fact that this is something that their audience wants, just putting in some even really basic level of testing and going out there and validating with the customer that this is a value proposition that's going to actually solve a problem for them will really help them to essentially make better strategic decisions.

Jennifer: The intended target.

Katrina: Yeah, the intended target, the ones that you're building that product for.

Jennifer: I think every VC Fund Manager out there that's listening to this right now is going, "Oh, my word," like millions of dollars could have been saved if a bunch of technical people who had a good idea would have just said, "Maybe we should just see if people actually want it," or they need it or, "Are we developing it in the way that they will consume it?"

Katrina: You can validate at different stages of the process, too. It's not just about doing it at the beginning, but it's also about continuing to iterate and validate throughout and make sure that you're on the right track.

Jennifer: Who is doing it well? Who is doing accessibility well out there? You know, you think to yourself, "Well, this is best in class, deeply committed to being delightful?"

Russell: I think we have a lot of home-grown talent in Ontario.

Jennifer: Great.

Russell: OCAD is really good, for example. We have Inclusive Design Research Center there. That's kind of incubated in other places now, too. A local company is Fabel, which does remote accessibility testing, which is quite nice. What some of the people at Microsoft have started doing is also very innovative. It's been kind of a core part of their mission of this new Microsoft, and they've kind of taken the concept of inclusive design and really put some thought with some kind of strong foundational research around it and started approaching a lot of their products from that point of view. Also, if you've seen the most recent Google Keynote, if you're paying attention, more than 50% of that was actually about accessibility and helping a wider market. Like I said, the momentum is kind of growing.

Jennifer: Well, and if Google or Microsoft are investing in this it's a pretty strong message to pretty much everyone listening, right? I mean, if they've got deep pockets and they're saying, "Oh, this is absolutely a priority," there's a warning bell that should be going off for everyone that says, "You know, we should all be ..." What about user research. Who out there is you can, obviously, tell that they're doing a great job?

Katrina: I'll actually echo the idea of local talent in Ontario doing a great job. The Ontario Digital Service. They're an organization that's working with government to actually take a look at government services and how we can make some of those better for citizens. Not only are they sort of going out there and working with citizens, and working with sort of different parts of government, but it's really making Ontario a better place.

Jennifer: That's awesome, that's amazing. Go Canada, right? Always. What are you excited about with regards to accessibility in the space and what's happening in the next, let's say, 18 months to three years? What do you see that's exciting about what this is going to do for the industry?

Russell: I'm definitely excited because we're in this kind of phase where the infrastructure of the 21st Century is being built and it's a digital infrastructure, right? We're starting from scratch and we have a chance to not make the same mistakes that we've made in the past in terms of excluding people and kind of stopping that cycle of exclusion. So, I think what we're going to find over the next three to five years is people start really pay close attention. They stop kind of treating accessibility as a cost center and start thinking of it as a profit center, because it's going to lead them to solving problems for a wider range of people. Yeah, I think it will end up with like a much more kind of delightful experience of digital technology.

Jennifer: One thing I know for sure as someone that was in retail for quite a few years is, marginalized groups who can be surprised and delighted are very vocal, and they will be very brand loyal. So, there's a tail end of that which is, you have that loyalty that follows you throughout. They are part of advocacy groups and community groups, so I absolutely see that as an investment for the greater good which is pretty incredible.

Katrina: Yeah, so I think it's kind of actually fundamentally changing the way that we look at technology and the way that we look at experiences, because I think especially as someone who has background in user experience, we've sort of really just looked at screens, like screens is kind of flat surfaces, maybe going back to the print days, it's something that kind of mimics this like sort of flat surface. But, we really need to think about augmented ways in which people interact with those experiences. It's not just about using a mouse and being reliant on vision, but what are other ways that people interface with technology? So that could be through touch screen, though voice, through sound, through keyboard navigation.

Jennifer: Right. Do you want to talk about like anyone that's looking for a career out there, this is only going to go up, up, up, up right? So, if someone's looking to choose a tech career ...

Russell: Absolutely.

Jennifer: ... this commitment to users and being user centric and accessibility centric is really smart to me, because there's no way that companies are ever going to go back from where they came from.

Katrina: Right.

Jennifer: I cannot thank you enough for being here today. This has been really, really interesting. I'm really, really excited about the work that you're talking about, the work that you're doing. Thank you on behalf of all of the people out there looking for a delightful experience. It's really nice that you guys are working on that. Thanks so much for our guests today.